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NF-Lee's Gildor and Frodo

In Commemoration of March 25th ~ The Fall of Barad-dûr, with jan-u-wine's "Frodo's Journal".

Posted on 2007.03.24 at 18:17

Comments:


Eandme
eandme at 2007-03-26 19:42 (UTC) (Link)
What a thoughtful, enjoyable reply! I agree with you on everything. And I especially appreciate these lines:

"with the erotic love portrayed between the male (dying and rising) fructifying god and the female god of the earth. This imagery works for me, too, and always has, for it touches my deepest desire: which is for ultimate intimacy."

That really spoke to me. Beautifully put!

I think it a stroke of Tolkien's genius that he made Frodo exactly that which you wrote, a mortal imperfect being. It is very different from C S Lewis' approach in the Narnia series where he created an alternate image of Christ in the Great Lion. (which I also love btw). I am often stunned by the depth of intelligence of Professor Tolkien, and how it was paired with such unusual artistic sensitivity

As for the celibat, I think I have a fairly good understanding of that because I lived for a large portion of my youth in a monastery. I have been priviliged enough to be at the recieveing end of that love, you know. The time, energy, attention and sheer commitment that the sisters and brothers were willing to give to me and many others... I know that it can never be that way between the priests of my church (of which I am one) and the youth there. We just don't have as much space in our lives as someone who is celibat.

Your last paragraph was very interesting too. Can God love us with a physical love? I wouldn't say it's impossible. Isn't that the meaning of the Church as the "body" of Christ, you know, his feet, his hands. I think we can broaden the meaning of the incarnation to mean also that God is somehow present in physical reality through the good deeds we perfom as a service to others. For me God is in us as well as outside of us, and being inside us God might act from there.
Mechtild
mechtild at 2007-03-26 21:22 (UTC) (Link)
You were in a monastery? How wonderful, even for a time (considering it was a good experience). May I ask which order? I have a Tolkien-friend whose elderly aunt is a Trappist nun and seems to be happy with her life choice. Were you a regular retreatant or an actual postulant/novice/or whatever level you entered into?

Your last paragraph was very interesting too. Can God love us with a physical love? I wouldn't say it's impossible. Isn't that the meaning of the Church as the "body" of Christ, you know, his feet, his hands. I think we can broaden the meaning of the incarnation to mean also that God is somehow present in physical reality through the good deeds we perfom as a service to others. For me God is in us as well as outside of us, and being inside us God might act from there.

I know that the church is Christ's hands, and that God works through means (nature, people and their actions) to show Christ's love and mercy. And I know that mortal spouses or lovers can manifest a degree of the intimacy described between God and Israel (as Daughter Zion, God the lover's wayward Bride), or Christ as Bridegroom to the church. And individuals can experience very intimate union with God in contemplation that has no physical medium at all.

But what I meant was that what was described in stories like 'The Da Vinci Code' -- bodily union with God incarnate -- is not possible. One might make love and experience an intimacy that seems to touch the divine, but it is experienced with a living, mortal partner, not God directly. That is what I meant.

And, as mortal partners go, I personally can't think of one preferable to Frodo. Too bad he's fictional. Yet even if he's fictional, I think in many ways he stands for the best that is in any of us, in spite of our great frailty. To be able to love him, I think, is to draw that much nearer to loving each other, and our own selves, with the same sort of love: passionate and warm, and shot through with mercy.

pearlette
pearlette at 2007-03-26 22:00 (UTC) (Link)
Wow, Mechtild and Eandme, what a great discussion you've got going here between you! Really perceptive comments about the differences - and the connections - between divine love and erotic love.

I agree with Mechling about the reasons why Jesus stayed celibate - not because He was asexual but because His mission, in loving the world, excluded Him (by choice, I believe) from the exclusive nature of human love with a spouse.

As for Frodo, I have always seen him as representing the best that is in any of us, as Mechtild said. This is so true of Book Frodo, who I see as a pilgrim ... his spiritual beauty found a pleasing incarnation in the very beautiful Film Frodo gifted to us by PJ!

(Somebody once wrote a very funny fanfic about Book Frodo meeting about ten versions of the luscious-lipped, huge-eyed, dark-curled, smouldering Frodo who features so prominently in Fanfic World.)

Seriously: I have room in my imagination and my heart for the two versions of Frodo - Tolkien's, and the Frodo who arose in the fandom's imagination as the ideal lover, or an ideal of love.

I'm glad you like Narnia, Eandme: the Aslan concept certainly works for me. :)
Mechtild
mechtild at 2007-03-27 01:41 (UTC) (Link)
Pearl, it's not the most elevated remark but right off the bat I want to say I ADORE your icon. I know it's from the FotR EE scene watching the Elves, but the person who made the icon did wonderful things with it. Thank you so much for posting it here -- twice!!!

You know I agree with the image of Frodo as a pilgrim (rather than as an actual Christ figure), although he shared much with the self-sacrificing heros that went before him in literature, legends and religious accounts.

(Somebody once wrote a very funny fanfic about Book Frodo meeting about ten versions of the luscious-lipped, huge-eyed, dark-curled, smouldering Frodo who features so prominently in Fanfic World.)

Do you remember what it was called or who wrote it? It sounds very funny!
pearlette
pearlette at 2007-03-27 20:35 (UTC) (Link)
Not the most elevated remark?? Never! :) Yes, it's a gorgeous icon. Made for me as a Christmas present by erunameundomiel. She's done a wonderful job, I love the soft dark liquid brushstrokes she's used in the manip. And Frodo looks so wistful and yearning and sad, somehow, as he watches the Elves ...

I'm afraid that I don't remember either the title or the author of that story. Sorry. :( It was very funny ... all the alternative versions of Frodo were slash Frodos. Poor Book Frodo was most amazed!
Eandme
eandme at 2007-03-26 23:13 (UTC) (Link)
Yes, amen to that.

I was in the Taizé community. The girls are looked after by the sisters of St Andrew, a catholic order. But it's all about ecumenism there.
I have spent longer and shorter times there, ranging from a week, to half a year, to seven months one time. I've been there for several years, if you add it all up. Yet I never did become a novice.
The sisters are pretty much my favourite people in the whole world, and I owe them so much. I feel the same way about the brothers. But I always wanted to marry and have kids. If I hadn't felt that way I would have definitely tried to stay in Taizé as a sister. It's a tough life though. I don't flatter myself that I would have made a great nun... lol
Mechtild
mechtild at 2007-03-27 01:37 (UTC) (Link)
I know about Taizé from the liturgical music, although I have heard somewhat about it, all good. Our liturgy professor (this was twenty years ago) spent several months there and loved it -- but not enough to give up his wife and children! (Sound familiar?)
pearlette
pearlette at 2007-03-27 20:29 (UTC) (Link)
Wow, Eandme, that is fascinating. :) I am Protestant, and pretty evangelical, but I have a great respect for Catholic spirituality, especially the contemplative traditions.

I visited Taizé in the summer of 1990. It was very hot - the community is in central France, and that central plateau bakes like an oven at the height of summer. It was the summer after the Iron Curtain fell and there were thousands of young people from Poland and Eastern Europe ... the first time they had ever been out of their countries. It was moving.
pearlette
pearlette at 2007-03-28 21:42 (UTC) (Link)
Hey, what happened to my icon? Maybe because I changed the word settings on my user pics ... sigh.

Here it is again. :)
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